The Skeptical Perspective: Klass, Shandera and DuBose
It should also be noted that DuBose hasn’t actually changed his testimony at all. The real confusion comes from his statement that the debris on the floor in Ramey’s office was not switched. We had suggested that the debris Marcel brought to Ramey’s office was switched with the balloon. Dubose said that the debris on the floor wasn’t switched. That statement is correct. The debris on the floor was not switched. It was always a balloon. The real debris was never on the floor in Ramey’s office, contrary to what has been reported by others.
I could go into a longer explanation of the situation in Ramey’s office on July 8, 1947, but have done so in the November/December 1990 issue of The International UFO Reporterand the April 1991 issue of the MUFON UFO Journal.
Both publications provided detailed accounts of those critical hours, including a long listing of sources used in the preparation of the articles. It is interesting to note that Shandera and Moore quote sources but never supply copies of the tapes or transcripts to independent third parties. I have done both.
Klass, as he continues his analysis of the story, then makes the same mistake that Shandera has made. He confuses two flights with one. He writes, “When he (Don Schmitt) asked DuBose if he had seen ‘the actual debris’ brought by Marcel, DuBose replied: ‘Never.’ He claimed the real debris was contained in a plastic bag which was ‘tied with a wire seal around the top.’ which was flown to Washington, D.C. in a B-25 or B-26. (Marcel, interviewed in the late 1970s, recalled the debris was flown to Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio, in a B-29.)”
DuBose, when interviewed by us, was talking of the a single flight from Roswell which was probably made late on Sunday July 6, 1947. That flight held some of the debris brought into the Chaves County Sheriff’s Office by Mack Brazel. Then, two days later, Marcel and the B-29 flew on to Fort Worth. There is no discrepancy here, just a misinterpretation of the facts by an outsider who has confused them.
But Klass is not content to leave it there. He reports, “One indication of the 89-year old DuBose’s flawed memory is that when Schmitt asked if Shandera had visited his home a few months earlier to interview him, DuBose said Shandera had not. But when Schmitt asked Mrs. DuBose, she confirmed that Shandera had indeed visited their house for an interview.”
The conclusion, which Klass is so impressed with that he typed it in all caps, boldface, and underlined it, is, “Thus, while Moore/Shandera debate with Randle/Schmitt over which of DuBose’s recollections of events that occurred more than 40 years ago is correct, DuBose demonstrated for Schmitt that he could not remember a visit and interview by Shandera which had occurred only a few months earlier.”
Ignoring the fact that long term memory is better than short term, and that the elderly often display perfect memories of long ago events while being unable to remember what they had for breakfast, let’s examine that whole statement by Klass.
First, DuBose remembered the interview, but not the name of the interviewer. That’s a far cry from Klass’ claim that DuBose didn’t remember the interview. Second, the real question is not which of DuBose’s recollections of the events are accurate, but which version reported by others, is correct. DuBose’s recollections have not changed. Once again, I have made copies of the tapes available to disinterested third parties for review. Shandera/Moore have yet to do that. While I prove our claims, we must accept what they say without corroboration.
Klass does give us an answer, of sorts, to the question of which version is correct. Klass points out, “Randle/Schmitt managed to locate and interview the reporter for the Ft. Worth Star-Telegram — J. Bond Johnson — who had taken at least several of the photos in Ramey’s office. According to their taped interview, Johnson said he then doubted that he had photographed the authentic recovered debris. But several months later, when Johnson was interviewed by Shandera, he changed his account and said that he was confident that his photos did show the actual debris that Marcel brought to Fort Worth.”
Here is an opportunity to examine the methods and techniques used by Shandera. There is a wealth of documentation that can’t be altered. Johnson left a legacy of writings in the newspaper so that we can compare his original story with what he is saying today.
What we learn is that Johnson’s first version of the events, that he saw and photographed the bogus debris, and that the cover story of a balloon was in place before he arrived at Ramey’s office, is correct. After talking to Shandera/Moore, Johnson’s story changed. (For a complete analysis, see the November/December 1990 International UFO Reporter.) It boils down to Shandera’s version of events against that given and documented by outside sources.
Shandera’s version is at odds with both my tapes and the newspaper articles written (including one by Johnson and published the next day in the Fort Worth Star-Telegramin the right time frame.) Further evidence of Shandera’s altering facts appears in Shandera’s published version of what Irving Newton, one of Ramey’s weather officers, said and did in Ramey’s office. Shandera, writing in the MUFON UFO Journal suggested that Newton had changed his story after I had interviewed him, but a complete review of his testimony published in The Roswell Incident, shows that Newton’s testimony is consistent throughout all interviews with the exception of the new data written by Shandera. (For a complete analysis, see the MUFON UFO Journal, April 1991.)
So Klass seizes on the changes in testimony, condemning the witnesses, claiming that forty year old memories are flawed. But the problem is not the memories of the witnesses, but the reporting of their testimony by third parties. In fact, it is a single individual, Shandera, who is causing the trouble in this case. It is Shandera who is saying that I have been wrong. It is Shandera who has altered and misreported DuBose’s testimony, it is Moore and Shandera who have created the controversy over the Marcel interview, and it is Shandera against Newton. I offer copies of the tapes, the documentation, and the transcripts to independent third parties to prove my veracity while the others offer nothing other than their opinions and versions of the events.
Klass, trying to prove that Roswell was something mundane, probably a balloon, reports everything that raises the remotest question, but never tells the full story. He stops short. Klass, it seems, is treating this as a debate and not as a search for the truth.
At the end of his discussion of the Roswell events, he writes, “As reported in the July 9, 1947 edition of the Roswell newspaper, Brazel was quoted as saying, ‘when the debris was gathered up the tinfoil, paper, tape and sticks made a bundle about three feet long and 7 or 8 inches thick, while the rubber made a bundle about 18 or 20 inches long and about 8 inches thick. In all, he estimated, the entire lot would have weighed maybe some five pounds.’ Brazel was quoted as saying there was ‘considerable Scotch tape and some tape with flowers had been used in the construction. No strings or wire were to be found but there were some eyelets in the paper to indicate that some sort of attachment may have been used.’ (Curious construction techniques for a very advanced ET society to use in building spacecraft intended to traverse jillions of miles.)”
But what Klass never reports, though I have told him about it repeatedly, was that Brazel was escorted to that interview by Army officers. There are six separate witnesses who saw Brazel in downtown Roswell. They were surprised by Brazel’s refusal to acknowledge them, and the fact that there were three officers with him.
Klass, when I pointed that out, said that maybe it was easier for the officers to drive Brazel into town than for them to give him directions to the newspaper office. Three military officers drove Brazel into town so that he could be interviewed because it was easier than telling him, “Drive out the front gate, stay on Main Street, and the newspaper office will be on the right.”
Paul McEvoy, an editor at the newspaper said that Brazel was obviously under duress as he told his “new” story. Friends commented on Brazel’s lack of friendliness while he was in town. No, Brazel was taken to the office to tell a new story. The one that the military wanted him to tell.
But even so, Brazel slipped in a statement that was duly reported in the Roswell Daily Record, but ignored by Klass. In it, Brazel said, “I am sure what I found was not any weather observation balloon.”
Klass completes his report asking, “How would Ramey (who never talked to Brazel) know what kind of bogus material to use to replicate the description that Brazel would give to the Roswell newspaper? And how would Ramey be able to find and obtain such ‘look-alike’ material so quickly??”
But Klass, as does Korff, overlooks the testimony of others. DuBose suggested that debris had been in Fort Worth at least two days before Ramey made his press release. Ramey was in communications with Colonel Blanchard in Roswell, as well as SAC Headquarters in Washington, D.C. Orders from the top had trickled down through the chain of command. Ramey knew what to say, and probably obtained the balloon from his own weather station. It didn’t matter what Brazel had seen because Brazel’s statements to the newspaper the next day were fed to him by the military. He repeated what he had been told because the military was there watching him.
The answer to the first part of the question is that Ramey knew what Brazel would say because he had read the script. It wasn’t Brazel telling the truth at the newspaper office, but telling the reporters what he had been told to tell them.
And the answer to the second part is that they had been working on this for more than three days. Ramey, as well as many others, had already seen the debris. The major problem is that Shandera, and at times his partner, Moore, are trying to confuse the Roswell issue. They publish statements that are in direct contradiction with statements they have published in the past. They have reinterviewed witnesses and then claim that there are changes in the testimony.
Klass, wanting to destroy the Roswell testimony, uses these supposed discrepancies to refute the good work being done. He claims that witnesses can’t be relied on to remember accurately events of more than forty years ago. In fact, Klass has admitted that his job is to debuke UFO reports. Not investigate them to learn the truth, but to debuke them regardless of what that truth might be.
Klass continues to misinterpret facts. In his May 1994 Skeptics UFO Newsletter, he suggests that “Mrs. Frankie Rowe, who R/S [Randle/Schmitt] (erroneously) refer to as a ‘firsthand witness,’…” Yet he is aware that she said that she had handled a piece of metallic debris brought to the Roswell Fire Department by a state trooper. That makes her a first-hand witness to part of the story but it is easier to dismiss here if she had no firsthand knowledge.
Klass (centered, seen here is fans) also reports that “If a crashed saucer had been found 40 miles south of the debris field found on the Brazel ranch, the ‘retrieval team’ surely would have spent many days searching along the 40-mile flight path between the two sites, looking for more debris and perhaps even an ET who might have parachuted to safety. Yet no such search effort is reported by R/S’s ‘witnesses.‘”
Klass is assuming that because we, or our witnesses, reported no such effort, it is a flaw in the story. It is true that none reported such an effort immediately after the event, but that doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, only that those we have interviewed were not participants in it. The only legitimate conclusion to be drawn is that it hasn’t been reported, not that it didn’t happen.
Klass, in his conclusions, writes, “And Kevin Randle, who formerly served in the Army and later in the Air Force Reserve, enjoys Government benefits as a veteran. MORE AND MORE PIECES OF THE PUZZLE FIT TOGETHER.”
I have never understood what Klass was implying here. That I’m some sort of government agent attempting to expose the truth about the crash. Wouldn’t it make more sense if I was arguing that there was no cover-up?
When I responded that I currently receive no government benefits at the time as alleged by Klass, Klass responded, “It is regrettable that you fail to reply to question I pose. In my letter of April 29 [1994], I asked: ‘Do you enjoy absolutely NO present or potential future benefits for having served in Vietnam?’ (Emphasis added here.) Your evasive answer is: ‘I currently enjoy no benefits…'(Emphasis added.)”
In response, I said that I had used the qualifier because the laws are subject to change and my military status was subject to change. At that time, I didn’t anticipate a war in Iraq or that I would be a part of the military force engaged there. I wrote, “There are no benefits that I receive today, nor are there any for which I am eligible. The question is without relevance.”
Yet when I asked Klass what his military service had been, he responded writing, “I served 60 years with AFOSI, which included short stints as a B-17 pilot over Europe, a B-29 pilot over Japan, an F-86 pilot over Korea and an A-10 pilot in Vietnam.” I had tried to answer Klass’ question honestly. In response to my legitimate question about Klass’ military service, I was treated to a sarcastic reply.
Here’s where we are on this. We are treated to his analysis of the facts, but as we’ve seen, the conclusions drawn are not accurate. He leaves out that which doesn’t conform to his opinions, and attempts to discredit testimony by claiming the memories are nearly fifty years old and can’t be trusted to be reliable. His purpose is not to get at the truth, but to persuade others that there was no UFO crash. But a scientific investigation is a search for the truth and not an endorsement of a particular agenda. Here we see what is really going on, and once aware of it, can examine all the information in the light of that knowledge.
And that, really, is what we all should be doing.
https://scienceandspace.com/ufos/roswell-ufos-and-the-unusual-the-skeptical-perspective-klass-shandera-and-dubose-part-1/